WTF is Mike Lee doing? That’s where this conversation starts, but it doesn’t stay there. Because this isn’t just about one senator’s Twitter addiction. It’s about what happens when power untethers from principle. It’s about how the culture war became the GOP’s entire personality. And it’s about the vacuum, of meaning, of masculinity, of moral center, that MAGA has learned to exploit.
I sat down with Adam Kinzinger to talk through it. We talked about men, tradwives, CatTurd and what it means to fight without losing your soul.
You can watch the full discussion above, and here is an edited transcript:
Emily:
What is Mike Lee doing?
Adam:
Look, here's the crazy thing about Mike Lee is -I never liked him - but like initially I kind of saw him as like Rand Paul - who I also don't like - but I think Rand Paul is at least kind of believes what he says. He’s to an extent principled, like he's just kind of an isolationist. And I thought, that Mike Lee was that way, a constitution guy, whatever. He shaved his head and then basically became a own the libs guy. Then he puts out something about like, this is what you get when you're not Marxist enough or whatever it is. He knows what's wrong and he won't delete it. [Note, he has finally deleted it.]
I guess the thing that's always confused me, is when I went into politics, I thought about legacy. I thought about, the fact that what I do has an impact on real people, more than just me. And it feels like everybody, and Mike Lee especially, has kind of lost that. They've become completely unhinged or unmoored.
Emily:
Yeah, Mike Lee moral arc is really fascinating. So when I was working on judiciary committee him and his staff were the most superior people, he's a former supreme court clerk everything was about constitutionality and how it has to be right and correct and he was owning people but …. Socratically. Really imperious intellectualism. And it feels like the brain rot of Twitter has gotten to him. It's giving desperation for the Twitter honchos to love him and be like, good job, buddy. You did a good tweet.
Adam:
I've been through periods where I've been on Twitter way too much, particularly like when I get into it with some of the Russian accounts, I'm engaging with people that have 10 followers, and they're at a laptop somewhere in Moscow …
Emily:
Why do you do it though?
Adam:
I don't know… but I think about the reality, we have people that are thought leaders on Twitter called cat turd. People want to get on Cat Turd's good side. Cat Turd, by the way, is just some dude in Florida that's really a desperate dude. And that's what Mike Lee... Emily, I guarantee you, he's hoping that Cat Turd will acknowledge his tweet. And he's a U.S. Senator.
I feel like the fact that Donald Trump and this MAGA thing has been in our life for 10 years, sometimes it's hard for us to remember that there used to be a world where stuff like this never happened, and it was completely unacceptable. And I just feel bad because the people that are 25 years old and younger, they don't remember a world that was any different.
Emily:
I think he's doing it because he really wants to do it. And that the culture war aspect is maybe perhaps something that people like you in the Republican Party had failed to acknowledge the degree to which there are a lot of people for whom, the culture war is why they're in it.
Adam:
Yeah, you are 100% right. I think—one of the reasons the kind of former Republican cadre has been kind of honestly more effective against Trump than the Democrats is because we understand inherently the mindset of why this stuff is successful. So, for instance, I said something that people get all pissed off at.
I'm like, guys, don't carry the Mexican flags in L.A. I'm not saying you can't carry a Mexican flag. I'm not saying you shouldn't be proud of being Mexican. What I said was the visuals of what is being used actually will run counter to what you're trying to accomplish,
And what we understand is that Trump is playing everything he does and everything in the context of the culture war.
It is us against him.
It is peddling fear, using fear, using darkness.
And it literally drives everything, it is why they love Russia. Because Russia, they see as this kind of anti-gay, sort of pro-family, even though a million Russians have been killed or injured, and they bomb churches, but whatever.
Emily:
I think part of it is they're willing to piss people off and Democrats really don't like pissing people off. We're a sensitive people. We want everyone to be happy and we do care so deeply. I care so deeply and I get so upset when people are upset.
Adam:
You're not good street fighters.
Emily:
No, absolutely not. I will bring cookies.
Adam:
I'll hear some folks, and thankfully it's been pretty resisted, but some folks are like, we need basically our own version of Donald Trump.
Listen, no, you don't. You don't want that. Because that means you as Democrats will end up ultimately losing your soul.
Emily:
I think a lot about the concept of masculinity that's being presented. And it's not just Trump, right? Charlie Kirk, Benny Johnson, the great irony of these men considering themselves epitome of masculinity when in fact, it’s the unfuckability of trio.
Adam:
Let's talk about the issue of masculinity because it's something I'm very passionate about. So. I guess it just came out, somebody spent $10 million to try to figure out how to go into the manosphere. I think the left has to own a little bit that for a number of years, all masculinity was called toxic, and masculinity was discouraged. But what you had in that is a bunch of young men, that all of a sudden felt this desire or this need to be masculine, they're like, what's my role in the world?
They felt lonely.
In that vacuum of a definition of masculinity, Donald Trump comes along and he says, tweet in all caps, punch down, be a bully. That's masculine. Andrew Tate comes along and he's like, abuse women. That's masculine. And in the absence of men, and it's men that own this problem, by the way, not Democrats or women. In the absence of men saying, no, here is what healthy masculinity is. Healthy masculinity, maybe it's joining the military, maybe it's defending your family. It's definitely punching up, not punching down.
It's definitely defending the defenseless, right? Helping the poor. Those are all masculine traits. But we let that definition fall apart. And I think that's led to this crisis of young men.
Emily:
I try pretty hard to stay out of masculinity discussions because, what do I fucking know? Very little about men, to be honest.
But one of the things I do talk a lot about is that conservatives have seen that playbook and how it has worked, and they're now running it with women. And they're running Femininity Over Feminism. And I am seeing a lot of people I know fall prey to the beginning of the rabbit hole.
Adam:
It's like the trad wife thing, right?
Emily:
It's the trad wife thing. It sounds out there but I am here in a country kitchen because I consume so much trad wife content it has gotten into my brain that if I was just in the peaceful country, I would achieve happiness. And it turns out I still have to work.
(I kid) But, I think that I think that they it's a willingness to manufacture a narrative, a willingness to lie. These things that they are selling will not make men - have not made men - happy and it will not make women happy. Everyone having to abide by a hierarchical system in which they don't get to make their own life decisions is by definition, not an enjoyable way to live. And yet they make it seem so appealing and beautiful and empowering with this well-funded messaging machine
So, while my dog barks you out, what can you tell people who have gotten excited and engaged, maybe for the first time, what is your suggestion for those people who want to stop what MAGA and Trump is doing?
Adam:
Yeah, so first off, we got to look at this in a long horizon, right? We're six months into this administration, right? We had, a couple million people on the streets. That's huge, okay? That's a huge advancement from where we've been. So look at the forest here and say we're making very positive strides. So keep encouraged.
The other thing, for your mental health, if you get exhausted and tired, take some time. Take that burden off your shoulder because here's the big key. They are... It's like a shot of cocaine or Adderall for them. This chaos. They love it, right?
We get exhausted by it.
So we're at a disadvantage. So what do we have to do? We have to take time to rejuvenate, okay? One more tweet isn't going to save this country, right? It's all of us in this together. So stay excited. Stay engaged. Look at this as a four-year battle. This is not something that's going to happen tomorrow. It's going to be a longer battle.
And then lastly... Get out of your mind that this is the right against the left. This is not the right against the left. This is the sane right, the center, and the left against autocracy. That is the only way that we're ever going to get to 51% and win this fight. So that's my advice to people.
And have fun. I mean, dude, we're in a coalition with a bunch of people that are different than us. That's actually pretty awesome as far as I'm concerned. I'm kind of bored when I'm surrounded by people just like me, you know?
Emily:
We got to make it fun. You got to make it a little bit of a party and you got to make people want to be a part of it.
Adam:
Happy warriors, right?
Emily:
Happy warriors. Indeed.
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